RE: MMM2 proposals
First of all, I'm really happy to see a substantial discussion about all this. My goal with the business-end of hitRECord is TRANSPARENCY, and that will only happen if we talk about it, ask questions, express concerns, come up with ideas and solutions, etc. It's awesome, thank you, and please keep it up.
Now, discussing something as personal as our art in terms of something as cold as money can be gross. I have to do it all the time, both for hitRECord and for my work outside of hitRECord, and I still get grossed out sometimes. So I'm not shocked to see some hurt feelings, although I gotta admit, it pains me to see. It's the last thing I ever intended. But I think as long as we can keep in mind that all of this is taking place under a big umbrella of mutual respect, we can hopefully plow through this necessary but weird part of doing projects on a professional level together.
Jen, I understand why your feelings would be hurt by the words with which this proposal has labeled your work. But please understand, it doesn't come from any lack of appreciation for the work you've done. Really. I've loved your work for years, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you've become one of my favorite visual artists ever in the world. When adapting the MMM story into live action, Lula and I took heaps of inspiration from your work, and it made perfect sense that those same RECords figured so prominently in Lawrie's visuals. Again, I understand how you inferred some disrespect, but I gotta stand up for myself and Jared to say, there really really was nothing
but respect and admiration on our end. So I'm hugely glad you spoke up. We can solve this together and come up with a proper credit for you. We proposed "Key Drawings" not because the impact of your work started and ended with drawings, but because that's the medium you used. How about "Concept Art" "Character Animation" or... well, really I'm open to suggestions. It would really help if you could try to suggest a few things.
Titles are tricky. It's trying to sum up a complex creative process in a couple words. No title is really adequate. And it's all slippery anyway. For example, working as an actor, I give lots of input on the words my character says, or the clothes my character wears, or plenty of other things all the time. But I don't expect a co-writing credit or a co-costume designer credit. The work I do in those areas is all encompassed in the word "actor." And in the end, it's just a word. Sure, do I sometimes get frustrated when people say, "hey what's it like to smile for a living?" Yeah, but fuck those guys.
Speaking of titles, lemme address a question a few of you have brought up, which is Lawrie's title. Well, first I'll state the obvious that the work Lawrie did is beautiful, hilarious, heroic and more and I love it. Jared and I thought for a while as to how to label the work he did, it was really hard, and yeah, I'm not satisfied with what we came up with so far. Again, that's why we release these as "Proposals" first, before they're all done, so we can include the whole community in the process. Lawrie's was the least traditional part of the MMM process, there's not really any precedent for it, and that's why we sorta took a stab at making up a humorous title like "Zoo Maker" to go next to "Visual FX" and "Animator". As with Jen, I'd like to hear Lawrie's input on this. We could say "Production Designer," or "Art Director," or... I'm open to suggestions?
Then there's the question of the title "Director." The reason we called me the "Director" is because I was the one who brought every element of the short film together. Metaphorest was in charge of the words, I was in charge of the performance, Lawrie was in charge of the look, Nathan was in charge of the music, and throughout all of that, I was working with each to make everything all fit together. That's my best attempt at a brief definition of the job of "Director." Of course Lawrie gave lots of people direction, and so did Nathan in creating the musical score, and I imagine that Krr gave direction to the various musicians who all played on his "MMM2 Strings" RECod. Like on a movie set, when a Cinematographer lights a scene, s/he's giving direction to the Gaffer, and the Gaffer's giving direction to the Grips.
Then there's the different question of percentages. As a few of you have pointed out, it's not customary in Hollywood to give the writer the highest percentage, but I strongly feel that the spirit of MMM lives and dies in the words Metaphorest wrote, and so we gave her the highest share of 20%. Next is Lawrie with 18%. Those two shares are way higher than any other job's share. Could it be 19% and 19% instead of 20% and 18%? It could be. I'd like to hear Sarah and Lawrie chime in. Next we gave 13% to the "White Walls" RECord, and that's to divide up for three actors -- me 1%, Lula 7% and Chan 1% -- and the camera work 2%, and the editing 2%. The next level below are the 7% shares, and that's for me as Director, Nathan for the music, and Jen for her (as yet untitled) work, and as I mentioned already Lula for her performance. So it seems to me that the work Metaphorest and Lawrie_Brewster did is deservedly being compensated a whole level higher than any other work.
Anywho, that's some of the thinking behind these numbers. Again, I'm open to discussion. I think one thing that would be helpful in discussing further would be to talk in specific terms. For example, "I think this RECord/job deserves 3% instead of 2% because..." That'll be more forward-moving than general statements that can be interpreted any number of ways.
Matt, your idea of proposing titles and getting feedback is exactly right. And these "proposal" documents were always intended as that. I think we put so much emphasis on the numbers being proposed, that we forgot to explicitly say that all of these titles are open for discussion too. But yeah, this iteration of these documents really is just the proposal.
via, you and MattConley both bring up the painfully true point that these pillar achievements of ours are still in need of a finishing or "final" version. It's actually something I've been thinking about a lot in terms of the DVD/Book we're gonna make. We're gonna have to turn in our burn'em versions all too soon. I totally agree that in those final versions, there should be full credits with everybody's name (or alias, whichever they prefer). In the meantime, definitely trying to not look too dolty.
I'll add this, and then call it a night. Ranking creative
collaborators into linear numeric order is necessary when you're trying to pay people. (And when doing pro projects I like it when people get paid.) But. Ranking creative collaborators into linear numeric order is not a real good way to think about things when you're trying to make stuff together. When you're trying to make stuff together, you have to know that the magic we're cooking up is something greater than the sum of its parts, and that every single solitary part is entirely necessary to create that whole something. And when I play Morgan and Destiny's Eleventee(n)th Date -- THE ZEPPELIN ZOO -- I don't feel a crew in rank and file behind it. I feel a whole mess of people coming together. And I hit one RECord.
(alright that ending was a little too dramatic, but come on, i gotta entertain myself somehow :O)
thanks again
<3
Now, discussing something as personal as our art in terms of something as cold as money can be gross. I have to do it all the time, both for hitRECord and for my work outside of hitRECord, and I still get grossed out sometimes. So I'm not shocked to see some hurt feelings, although I gotta admit, it pains me to see. It's the last thing I ever intended. But I think as long as we can keep in mind that all of this is taking place under a big umbrella of mutual respect, we can hopefully plow through this necessary but weird part of doing projects on a professional level together.
Jen, I understand why your feelings would be hurt by the words with which this proposal has labeled your work. But please understand, it doesn't come from any lack of appreciation for the work you've done. Really. I've loved your work for years, I've said it before, and I'll say it again, you've become one of my favorite visual artists ever in the world. When adapting the MMM story into live action, Lula and I took heaps of inspiration from your work, and it made perfect sense that those same RECords figured so prominently in Lawrie's visuals. Again, I understand how you inferred some disrespect, but I gotta stand up for myself and Jared to say, there really really was nothing
but respect and admiration on our end. So I'm hugely glad you spoke up. We can solve this together and come up with a proper credit for you. We proposed "Key Drawings" not because the impact of your work started and ended with drawings, but because that's the medium you used. How about "Concept Art" "Character Animation" or... well, really I'm open to suggestions. It would really help if you could try to suggest a few things.
Titles are tricky. It's trying to sum up a complex creative process in a couple words. No title is really adequate. And it's all slippery anyway. For example, working as an actor, I give lots of input on the words my character says, or the clothes my character wears, or plenty of other things all the time. But I don't expect a co-writing credit or a co-costume designer credit. The work I do in those areas is all encompassed in the word "actor." And in the end, it's just a word. Sure, do I sometimes get frustrated when people say, "hey what's it like to smile for a living?" Yeah, but fuck those guys.
Speaking of titles, lemme address a question a few of you have brought up, which is Lawrie's title. Well, first I'll state the obvious that the work Lawrie did is beautiful, hilarious, heroic and more and I love it. Jared and I thought for a while as to how to label the work he did, it was really hard, and yeah, I'm not satisfied with what we came up with so far. Again, that's why we release these as "Proposals" first, before they're all done, so we can include the whole community in the process. Lawrie's was the least traditional part of the MMM process, there's not really any precedent for it, and that's why we sorta took a stab at making up a humorous title like "Zoo Maker" to go next to "Visual FX" and "Animator". As with Jen, I'd like to hear Lawrie's input on this. We could say "Production Designer," or "Art Director," or... I'm open to suggestions?
Then there's the question of the title "Director." The reason we called me the "Director" is because I was the one who brought every element of the short film together. Metaphorest was in charge of the words, I was in charge of the performance, Lawrie was in charge of the look, Nathan was in charge of the music, and throughout all of that, I was working with each to make everything all fit together. That's my best attempt at a brief definition of the job of "Director." Of course Lawrie gave lots of people direction, and so did Nathan in creating the musical score, and I imagine that Krr gave direction to the various musicians who all played on his "MMM2 Strings" RECod. Like on a movie set, when a Cinematographer lights a scene, s/he's giving direction to the Gaffer, and the Gaffer's giving direction to the Grips.
Then there's the different question of percentages. As a few of you have pointed out, it's not customary in Hollywood to give the writer the highest percentage, but I strongly feel that the spirit of MMM lives and dies in the words Metaphorest wrote, and so we gave her the highest share of 20%. Next is Lawrie with 18%. Those two shares are way higher than any other job's share. Could it be 19% and 19% instead of 20% and 18%? It could be. I'd like to hear Sarah and Lawrie chime in. Next we gave 13% to the "White Walls" RECord, and that's to divide up for three actors -- me 1%, Lula 7% and Chan 1% -- and the camera work 2%, and the editing 2%. The next level below are the 7% shares, and that's for me as Director, Nathan for the music, and Jen for her (as yet untitled) work, and as I mentioned already Lula for her performance. So it seems to me that the work Metaphorest and Lawrie_Brewster did is deservedly being compensated a whole level higher than any other work.
Anywho, that's some of the thinking behind these numbers. Again, I'm open to discussion. I think one thing that would be helpful in discussing further would be to talk in specific terms. For example, "I think this RECord/job deserves 3% instead of 2% because..." That'll be more forward-moving than general statements that can be interpreted any number of ways.
Matt, your idea of proposing titles and getting feedback is exactly right. And these "proposal" documents were always intended as that. I think we put so much emphasis on the numbers being proposed, that we forgot to explicitly say that all of these titles are open for discussion too. But yeah, this iteration of these documents really is just the proposal.
via, you and MattConley both bring up the painfully true point that these pillar achievements of ours are still in need of a finishing or "final" version. It's actually something I've been thinking about a lot in terms of the DVD/Book we're gonna make. We're gonna have to turn in our burn'em versions all too soon. I totally agree that in those final versions, there should be full credits with everybody's name (or alias, whichever they prefer). In the meantime, definitely trying to not look too dolty.
I'll add this, and then call it a night. Ranking creative
collaborators into linear numeric order is necessary when you're trying to pay people. (And when doing pro projects I like it when people get paid.) But. Ranking creative collaborators into linear numeric order is not a real good way to think about things when you're trying to make stuff together. When you're trying to make stuff together, you have to know that the magic we're cooking up is something greater than the sum of its parts, and that every single solitary part is entirely necessary to create that whole something. And when I play Morgan and Destiny's Eleventee(n)th Date -- THE ZEPPELIN ZOO -- I don't feel a crew in rank and file behind it. I feel a whole mess of people coming together. And I hit one RECord.
(alright that ending was a little too dramatic, but come on, i gotta entertain myself somehow :O)
thanks again
<3
